057: Legal Lowdown Pt. 2: Permanent Jewelry on Minors, Trademarks, and Business Boundaries

Ep 57_LegalDoer2_GLP_FINAL

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Jen Thyrion: [: 00:00:00

This podcast is made to equip you with everything you need to succeed from actionable marketing steps. To digging deep on your mindset, I know firsthand the heart hard work, and let's be real at times, a struggle that makes up this amazing journey. You wanna know what has enabled me to shine the brightest Coaching Plus community?

to the Goldie Links podcast.[: 00:01:00

Hey there. Did you know that we offer handmade permanent jewelry supplies? Go to goldie link supplies.com to view our beautiful chains, connectors, Bengals, and more, including our non-permanent stretchy bracelets that are available to you for wholesale. Everything is created by a tribe of mama makers.

What is a mama maker? Stay-at-home moms that create on their own time between raising their children, serving as a self-care creative outlet, and supporting their families. Your items come with signage on how these supplies are made, along with Gemstone property info, as each gemstone has a special meaning.

waivers, which brings me to [: 00:02:00

Yes or no. This is where obviously waivers are super important, important in general, but you can go to all the things permanent jewelry.com, and actually Alyssa created a waiver that's done for you for purchase if you're interested in a waiver specifically also for minors. So we're gonna get into the subject today.

We're also gonna touch on trademarking copywriting and legal things that you probably didn't know because I learned something today as well. So this is information packed episode. Enjoy. Okay. I am so excited to have Alyssa back from Legal Doer. We are gonna dive deep today on one specific subject, which is doing permanent jewelry on minors.

we'll get into it and I'll, [: 00:03:00

And then also I just go with my gut and how I feel about specific situations. So, but let's start somewhere here, Alyssa. So where do we start?

Alyssa Malchiodi : Right? Where

manent jewelry? As of July of: 2025

Alyssa Malchiodi : is no federal ban on we welding jewelry on minors As long as it's consented by the guardian or legal, legal guardian.

Yes, but it does trigger. Certain child product regulations potentially if we're going 12 and under. Okay. And we can dive into that more. 'cause I know there's, there's a lot of misinformation out there and, you know, it doesn't help that we don't have any specific, uh, permanent jewelry laws on the books.

o like tattoo or piercing or [: 00:04:00

Jen Thyrion: Yeah, I, that's what's hard 'cause it's such a great, I guess, gray area.

There's no, like you said, defined to be one thing. If it's black and white, like this is the law, you cannot, or you can or whatnot. You know? Again, there's caveats with like the under 12, like you said, because like you said there not too long ago when you would Google, or sorry, go to AI and put in permanent jewelry, it was thinking you were talking about like piercings and Like piercings.

Yeah, yeah. Or like the dermal things you put in your skin or, you know. Yes. So I think sometimes when people were Googling it and they were like. Is permanent jewelry legal on a minor. And then they would be like, it'd be like hard, no. And they're like, oh my God. That's the answer. When really it wasn't.

Because AI and Google is always have the right answer, right? So,

Alyssa Malchiodi : and they're pulling from blogs, they're pulling from other permanent jewelry blogs that may, may or may not be legally

Jen Thyrion: true. And [: 00:05:00

And like you said, it did pull, we had like, we had different, actually on our phones was actually different. Yeah. And it, and it pulled from a website, a reputable website, a blog, like you said, it was an Instagram post that popped up. Yeah. Like it was really just their opinion. They were like, do we weld on under, you know, minors?

And it was like. Nope. For us not under 11, and we're like 11. Why? Like, why 11? You know? So it's like, it really is just kind of Yeah, because there's no heart. It's just pulling from all these different places.

Alyssa Malchiodi : Yeah, exactly. It's not pulling from the actual law. So like, let's get into what the actual law says.

comfortable with. But we are [: 00:06:00

So, you know, the first one's gonna be any jewelry that. Welded on 12 and younger, it can potentially be classified as a children's product, even if you're not marketing it to children and it's adult piece of jewelry, it can be intended for or used on 12 and under. All of a sudden you're under this children's product category potentially.

Right, and this is where it requires, I know a lot of people talk about this. This is where it requires the, the testing of, basically it's for lead testing, but for other restricted heavy metals. And that's where you need that children's product certificate. But as we were talking about, this is more for manufacturers and importers.

this doesn't contain lead or [: 00:07:00

You do not have to give it out to every single person that's 12 and under every parent that comes in, you don't have to present this certificate to them. But as we were discussing, there is an exception to this. So if the jewelry is made of solid, precious metal, so think of 10 karat gold, sterling silver, titanium, or platinum, and now you're into the precious metals, you are exempt from these testing requirements for lead because there shouldn't be any in there.

Right? Right. Um, it's only when you come to the non precious components, so think of charms, plated links, coatings, all of this would then fall under that testing requirement and you would need to just verify with wherever your supplier manufacturer is, that it doesn't contain lead or the other heavy metals.

y. You know, when, you know, [: 00:08:00

I know I did back in the beginning of my business, I didn't know what anything was for anything. So buying wholesale, like what is that? You know, getting a resale tax license, how do I do that? So. Sometimes you take steps to get in that, you know, but that's why I always advise, don't get me wrong, there's quality suppliers in Etsy, but you're most likely, you know, that's why it's gonna safeguard you to knowing the products you're buying are legit 14 karat gold fill and say it's not plated.

'cause then now you're exempt from that, right? Because now, like say if something were to happen and you thought you're using a precious metal, and turns out it was plated crap. You know? Yeah. And you know what I mean? And now you're, you, you thought it was, but it's not your fault because that's what you thought.

And it's not, that's gonna also affect your business in a lot of different ways, to be honest. Yes. But in this instance, yes. You know

it actually is the precious [: 00:09:00

Right. You can get into a lot of trouble with that, you know? Okay. So we've covered. 12 and under, but we're not there yet. We have another law to think about, which is the small parts rule, and this is all about putting jewelry on children who are under three years old. Okay? So now you have to pass a choking and aspirations test, which you can provide, you can find professional labs to test for this, but that may be way too much to go into, right?

And so if you do want to do under three years old, just understand. That you're gonna now have to comply with all these small part rules when it comes to choking. Right. And so I feel that me personally, if I were looking at these laws and if I were a permanent jeweler, I would say under three is a no starter for me due to choking hazards because it has to pass that small.

Small parts test. [: 00:10:00

And then consider also serving. 13 to under 18 year olds. All of this with parental consent obviously. But if you want to avoid the children product regulations, then you only serve 13 to under 18 year olds. But that really comes down to your own decision really, on whether you want to comply with small parks with the, with the testing certificate, and um, obviously getting parental consent throughout there and then having business insurance to cover you if anything does go wrong in there.

said, in avoiding those two [: 00:11:00

Alyssa Malchiodi : absolutely. Yes. You, so you need parental consent for anyone that's a minor, and so that.

Under 18.

Jen Thyrion: Okay. I know. And I really, it's about like expectations and education too. I think this comes to so many different parts of our business, but when it comes to this, and again, I'll share my personal experience again. I've had, and there's been people that have come to me with like, say a 10-year-old, they're like, oh, we were so disappointed.

We went to their permanent jeweler and she wouldn't even do this on our child. And we were kind of, they almost seemed like offended by it. Right. And I'm like, listen, I, uh, I respect their decision like everyone wants to. Feels good about, and I'm like, I'm fine with it. As long as your expectations are clear, right?

having the bracelet on this [: 00:12:00

Right. And you're signing off on it. They're signing the waiver, they're aware of it, we talk about it. Okay. That's one thing. But then also like when it comes to even younger, I shared with Alyssa before we started chatting, there was a couple times I did a permanent on the very beginning on like basically babies like around.

Like one was like seven months old and one was maybe a year. And both times 'cause of the, the mother was basically begging me, right? She was so wanting to brace on them so bad. And the seven month old, my gosh, took forever because of course this poor baby we're like trying to hold this arm doesn't want you to hold.

Yeah. This is not what you're like, what are you doing? And try to like start crying and I'm like, oh my gosh, this feels so wrong. Like, I don't know, I don't like this. But I did it because she just wanted it so badly. And then afterwards I was like, I'm never doing that again. I'm never doing that again.

Like, first of all, I have two kids. They're four and six. I, I've always been a freak about choking. I mean, I'm sure a lot of women out there, you know, moms, it's like, oh my God. Like it's my worst nightmare. Okay, so, oh, we, we still cut our kids' grapes and there are three and stuff. And so, oh my. Trust me, I know.

nd drop her daughter off who [: 00:13:00

Like, so yeah. I'm like, I am, I'm a worrier. I have to say, when it comes to stuff like that, I'm very, very much like just, yeah. I always think of worst case scenario when it comes to my kids. 'cause I freak out about everything. So when, well, with other people's kids, I mean, I'm the same way. I mean. Obviously, you know, safeguard my business, but also I could not live with myself if something happened to that child Right.

By just putting a bracelet on it. So waiver, yes, but I, after that I was like, yep, three and under. I'm actually, and without even not knowing this law that you brought up, I didn't feel comfortable. I mean, again, when I started this business, Goldie was just under two, I think, uh, probably. And so I did put one on her right around the age of two, but.

for anything under th anyone [: 00:14:00

Yes. So, you know, that's my biggest worry. My, my worry is not the metal. It's not, I never had a reaction. I'm using precious metals, like you said. I'm not worried about any of that. It's if it breaks off and they put it in their mouth and you're not, yeah. You can't watch 'em 24 7. Right. And say it comes off even in their bed or something.

Right? Like so they're aware of that, they sign the waiver. I talk 'em through that and you know, and a lot of parents are like, oh no, that's not an issue. Like, it's fine. And if some parents are even on the like fence, I'm like, uh, well why don't we put a clasp on? And you know, you can always take it off when you know times where you're not gonna be watching her and see if she does come off and she's gonna put in her mouth or he whatever.

Anyway, it's just things, I think what it comes down to also is just really trusting your gut. Like if I'm doing it doesn't mean you have to do it. And I know one girl, like, uh, we were talking about this and it kinda was a hot topic and even my, my small membership and we were talking back and forth about it and one girl was like, I just did my daughter.

the welder that I like poked [: 00:15:00

You know, there's no like right or wrong answer when it comes to this. Like, 'cause like we said, when it comes to, if, you know, you're using precious metals, you're, you're, you're aware of the law, you're signing the waivers, you know, but it's, it's really how you feel.

Alyssa Malchiodi : Right? I agree. Yeah. And then just understanding that you have these legal parameters also.

Jen Thyrion: Mm-hmm.

Alyssa Malchiodi : Right. So like what do you feel comfortable now knowing the under three, there's that extra choking hazard testing, if you know that. 12 and under. You're gonna need the spec. If it's, if it's non precious metal, you're gonna need that certificate potentially from your manufacturers. Or do you not even want to deal with any of that and just go 13 to under 18?

t that's the best way to go, [: 00:16:00

Jen Thyrion: Because really, I mean, it's like we were looking on it, I was looking at Etsy.

Speaking of Etsy, I was looking at Etsy when we, before we started chatting, and I was even like, there's so many bracelets and stuff geared for small children on Etsy, and of course one, one listing did say, choking hazard. Please take, you know, take the bracelet off. You know when sleeping or any activity, yes.

You can't watch them. So, because even if you were put a clasp, what I wanna try to get at is like, even if you put a clasp on a underage, it's still the same concept. Like, yes, there's always a breaking point. Even with a weld, there's always kinda a breaking point there. So. Clasp too. Like anything can happen even if a bracelet has a clasp on it.

Correct? Yeah, I agree.

, for your kid choking on it.[: 00:17:00

Or, you know, things will get recalled if there is an incident, but you never wanna be the one on the receiving end of that either. So it's just something to look out for. But you're absolutely right. I mean, whether it's permanent jewelry or with a clasp, you're gonna have those same issues if you're putting, uh, jewelry on under three year olds.

Jen Thyrion: Or kids that are under three. Exactly. And uh, we can talk about bracelets is one thing. Necklaces. So necklaces actually, that's something I don't feel comfortable with and that's my personal decision because I do a class, I'll say, I'll do a class because when they're so young. I like that. And they're in, say, the bathtub and the swimming pool.

I don't want a necklace. I want the opportunity for them to take off the necklace or sports. I mean, they're very active. I mean, they're young, active kids. So the fact of like pulling on a necklace without the parent or the child being able to take it off to do something like whether it be an activity, swimming bath time, like I, I'm not, no, I don't feel comfortable.

ybe something else. Is like, [: 00:18:00

Alyssa Malchiodi : Yeah. And there was nothing like specifically, I mean, I would just say from from personal experience, I know a lot of people were using on the, those teething necklaces. Yeah. And it was, you know, an uproar of like putting a necklace. On a small child. So yes, I think that that kind of goes towards more of a personal preference than a, a hard ban or a legal ban on doing so.

So I would agree with you in the sense that like, use your discretion on how much legal liability you wanna take on, because understand that if you're putting it on the wrist, the biggest thing is gonna be, you know, cutting off circulation. Sure, but you're gonna notice that you can cut it off immediately.

Um, but on the neck, that's the airway

't know. Just for me, like I [: 00:19:00

Etsy, Amber necklace situation. Right. But still, just again, it's, it's a personal decision. I think for myself, I don't even know if I really need to explain it. I just think that I don't feel good about it, and I don't, I don't feel good about that.

Alyssa Malchiodi : Yeah. I mean, you know, like, yeah, no, it is, and I mean, legal is always a sliding scale, right?

Like I always say, it's a sliding scale. You can go with absolutely no risk whatsoever. You don't want any potential for a liability, and you stay over here. In the middle is you decide what you feel comfortable with and you take on just a little bit and you minimize some of your risks. And on the other side, you're just out there with no cares, no right and no things with the law out there ready to get caught.

what level of risk you feel [: 00:20:00

Unfortunately. Is it gonna happen? I don't know, but it's like, you know, it's, there's, there is a percentage chance that it can happen or it can never happen. Right? That's the thing with the laws. It's like we are just doing, we're being risk adverse. And that's what the laws are, are trying to prevent. But we don't know whether it'll ever happen to you or not.

So it comes down to what do you feel comfortable with?

Jen Thyrion: Yeah, agreed. Like as long as you're abiding by, like you said, you, you can look at it in different ways where I'm picturing that person, like you said, who doesn't give a whatever and doing whatever, you know, no waiver using crappy metals, just, you know, and.

rent present and not being I [: 00:21:00

It really comes down to a lot of people. 'cause a lot of people can get really judgy. And that's what I wanna get at, is like if someone said, oh my gosh, you weld. Bracelet on a five-year-old, how dare you? Like it's for them, they think that's the worst thing ever. You know, for whatever reason they think it is.

It's like, well, not, you know, like we were talking before, there's certain cultures where they're putting bracelets on babies, like the minute they come out of the womb, I feel, yeah. Yep. They have their ears pierced. They have bracelets on their anklets, on their wrists. It's a cultural thing. Yeah, for sure.

So I think it's, again, that's why it's different maybe for everyone. If you're not comfortable with it, doesn't mean it's right or wrong. Right. And it doesn't mean the person that's doing it as long as they're doing it responsibly and listing all the things I just said. Right. We talk about. That that doesn't make that person right or wrong either, you know?

Yeah. So, but it makes me think, it's funny, we talk about precious metals before we start talking. I do have a small selection of stainless steel and now I'm like thinking maybe, yeah, maybe I don't actually offer that anymore for children because we, when we talk about the precious metal thing, I didn't even know that.

So I was like, oh yeah, well [: 00:22:00

Okay. Like I'd never thought twice about that, you know? Yes. But now it's like, well, gosh, just the thought and know that that exists at law and know that it's not a precious metal. And the fact that there possibility of there could be, you know, that I'm like, man. It's just the thought. Now I know that now I don't feel as comfortable doing what?

Yeah, so maybe like

Alyssa Malchiodi : children 12 and under, you're like, Hey, we're only gonna sell precious metal. Yes. Because we wanna make sure that there's no heavy metals and lead. I mean, as a parent, I would respect that. You know, it's all in how you present it. And again, if you feel more comfortable doing that, then you know that you are exempt from those testing requirements and having to make sure that you're manufacturer.

there's your way out of it, [: 00:23:00

Jen Thyrion: Love it. Yeah. Then it's just like something you don't have to worry about.

Right? Yeah. Like it's just something off your plate. Okay. I mean, 'cause really, like you said, we can do, you can do any part of business the right or wrong way. Right. They aware the wrong way. You can, you can, you can have a business without having insurance. You can have a business without doing a waiver.

You can literally probably have a business right now and you a lot of don't have, you know, the a business license, you know? Right. You didn't register your business and you're just doing it, you know? So, yeah.

Alyssa Malchiodi : It just, it fines and penalties will come up and they'll creep up and, exactly. You're one lawsuit away from losing it all, you know?

And so it's one of those things where it's, I, I see both ends. Yes. I see people that are coming up and, you know, as they start to make more money, that's when they're like, okay, wait, I need to get my legal ducks in a row. Like, let me go back and do all this. Or they start out that way, right? They're like, I wanna have everything done right when I start out.

. And then I have some [: 00:24:00

So let's figure out how to settle this and be done with it so that it doesn't skyrocket into a lawsuit or something worse. And then hard lesson learned, unfortunately. But I do see it, you know, that's why, that's why lawyers will probably never go away even with ai, because there's a gamut. There's a gamut of different ways of doing business, and unfortunately it does.

I don't know. When I don't, it's not a matter of if, it's a matter of when

we did actually, you shared [: 00:25:00

Again, you don't know what you don't know, but that's why it's so important to gain once you have this knowledge, it's like, because you said your business could fold overnight, that you worked so hard for. 'cause just 'cause you didn't know. Like it wasn't anything ill intended either. It was just, again, we just, you just didn't know that you needed to maybe safeguard your business that way or have things in place.

So that's why it's so smart, because if it were to something happen that makes all your years of hard work go out the window, like that's, you know. Yeah. Yes, worth doing the research and knowing, you know, the responsible way of doing it. But, which actually brings me too, 'cause I wanna touch really quick and I feel like we did again back in the last episode, but when it comes down to trademarking, because a lot of people listening probably have further into their business, they're obviously pretty married to their name.

er exact name, but using the [: 00:26:00

And of course she was upset about it, which I totally understand. But at the same time, it's one of those things, it's almost expectations, right? Yes. Of like, okay, if I'm gonna go into this and I, you know, I'm choosing this name, I'm not making this steps to trademark it and make it my own, then I have to expect that some someone's either gonna come to me and say, Hey, you're using my name, so you actually need to change your name.

'cause I have that trademarked and owe me damages for infringing on it. Yes. Or someone's gonna have the name again like that. You can't prevent it. Yeah. It's like, not saying you can't be mad about it, but you kind of can't be mad about it.

Alyssa Malchiodi : Right. You know? Yes, yes. I know I, yes. 'cause I've had these conversations with people too, and it's always so heartbreaking when they go to a trademark and I have to tell them like, oops, you didn't claim it and someone else has it.

ur. Like your business, they [: 00:27:00

If they were to see both of your names, they would think it was the same company or that it came from the same place. So also, it's not necessarily first to file, it's first to use, but if you're not the first to file, then you have a more difficult chance of showing like, Hey, I was using it first. And you don't put other people on notice.

So you have to watch the trademark applications to make sure that someone's not claiming it, that where you used it first, right? So like you were in the marketplace first, you were using this name. If you don't go to file it, you're. You have a harder chance for people finding you and knowing about you, and now you have to file an opposition to make sure that their application doesn't get approved, ends up being super costly.

you have to, you know, go in [: 00:28:00

That's why a lot of times we say don't do it yourself. Hire a lawyer because classes matter. Disclaimers matter. Sometimes certain words in your name, you can't own exclusively. Then we could help you also with figuring out how to make it more quote unquote fanciful or arbitrary or suggestive. So that's typically what the trademark office wants to see is, you know, kind of like arcane name like Starbucks, Uber, where it's not necessarily describing.

word. So you'll disclaim it, [: 00:29:00

So for your example, if the first girl was using that name first and throughout the United States, not just in that state, then she could potentially. Stop the second one from using it. If it was so identical that it's gonna confuse people and they're both permanent jewelry boutiques, right? But then your friend asked, you know that the first one needs to be super careful that they were actually the first one to use it because someone else may now be able to step in and say, no, you also can't, 'cause I have rights to this name before you.

'cause I used it before you, so it really ends up coming down to picking. A more fanciful or more unique name so that you can own it exclusively in the market.

Jen Thyrion: So can you trademark something statewide, like just for your state? Is that, is that a thing or is it always So

It is, but I would say it's [: 00:30:00

People mostly look it up on the federal, 'cause you wanna own it through all 50 states. So just because you have a state doesn't mean that you would prevent someone from filing federally.

Jen Thyrion: Right. Well, I guess, 'cause my thought is, especially a permanent jewelry business, they're so local anyway. So if they're not gonna be selling any, like grow their business to sell something nationwide or whatnot, and they're really just gonna stay local and they just want that, like that name in their state.

Do you know what I'm saying? Like, yeah, would that, but if someone owned it. On a larger scale, could they come, even if you just own it for the state, could they say you can't use that? Does that make sense? Yes. Yes,

Alyssa Malchiodi : they could. Especially if they were first to use it. So that's why it's always better to have more of a federal database, more of a universal database than the state.

So yes, you can file for the state, but it's not gonna put so many other people on notice that you exist.

after you have it. And say, [: 00:31:00

Technically, yes they can. Oh, really? Interesting. Yes, technically, yes

Alyssa Malchiodi : you have. So like there's this like five year period where they could oppose it. You know, they'd have to come in and file a petition to cancel and it is super expensive to get that done. But they could challenge your trademark. And I believe after five years your ownership is essentially, they're gonna have a really hard time coming after you for that.

Good to know. Yeah.

Jen Thyrion: So like, just, and it's, it's hard because once you, when you start a business, you sometimes don't imagine what it's gonna end up being. Right? Like yes, you start a business, you name it, you're like, oh, like I'm just gonna start this like little side hustle or who knows? But then as you said, like you get further into business and it grows, or it takes life of its own and you never thought, which happens all the time.

I, I realize I can't because [: 00:32:00

Anyway, things to consider, right? Yes. And then all in all, I mean, it probably depends on, you know, again, I would never advise doing it on your own either, that kind of thing, unless you're really schooled in the, you know, this. But what does it cost for the mo? Like what does the average cost of trademarking

Alyssa Malchiodi : do?

You know? So my, my initial. Packages start out at 2,500, and mostly because the government fees have gone up and they are acquiring more and more. I feel like they're putting more hurdles in front of people to kind of scare people away really from it. Yeah. I feel like I've gotten why? I think it's just a week.

'cause people don't, if they don't know what they're doing, they get scared away or they get an office action and they just kind of like walk away from it. But government filing fees right now are three 50 for one application and one class. Hmm. And so it kind of goes up from there and deciding, I, I know a lot of people wanna like D-I-D-I-Y.

can be so complex, right? So [: 00:33:00

Yeah. So then, and also figure out disclaimers and, and the right classes to put it in. But for mine personally, they start out at 2,500.

Jen Thyrion: Okay. '

Alyssa Malchiodi : cause of all the work upfront that it takes before even filing it.

Jen Thyrion: And how long does it take to actually get a trademark? Like actually have it, it can take up to 18

Alyssa Malchiodi : months, which is wild.

at is similar or not similar [: 00:34:00

So a lot of times the Drake can help you walk you through that and figure out legal ways to overcome it, but. At the end of the day, it's totally subjective, so no one can guarantee one for you. If they do guarantee it, I would run away. Um, it really is a process.

Jen Thyrion: Hey, busy entrepreneur. As you know, being a business owner, you have to wear all the hats.

You're a social media manager, marketer, graphic designer, accountant, photographer, videographer, what designer Business code scheduler, and the list goes on. I know how overwhelming it can be, and this is why I created the GoldLink Society. It's our monthly permanent jewelry membership. We have a weekly call to talk about all the things, but not only that, including monthly photography and video to use for your social media and marketing.

friendships and having fun. [: 00:35:00

If you wanna know more, check it out@goldielinkssociety.com or at all the things permanent jewelry.com. I hope to see you there. We were talking about this before, 'cause I was like, what is the difference between trademark and copyright and, and I think from what I understood, right, is that, 'cause you, we've probably talked about this, our last episode too, maybe, but I'm a lover of Shark Tank and yes, you hear a lot about design patents too.

So Yeah. You have patent, copyright and trademark and these are all protecting something of yours. Yes. Correct. So explain maybe the difference for me, 'cause it made me think of this actually. I, I did, um, go to a casting or a call once for Shark Tank, by the way. Cool. Yes, I did. And I got called back. Okay.

a group of girls in line and [: 00:36:00

I was like, how much? And I, again, I think it was, I could be wrong, but I could, I could have sworn she said like 30 grand. But does that sound weird? No or no? Does that sound right? No,

Alyssa Malchiodi : not, yeah. Design patents are, are intense.

Jen Thyrion: Yeah. And does it matter what is entailed in the design patent to like, make, does that determine the price, I guess you could say?

Or like how does that work too? Do you know what I, oh gosh, no.

Alyssa Malchiodi : I, I do not deal with design patents. Okay. They. Patents are like at the next level of ip, right? So like you have trademarks, which you think of just like identifiers of like thinking about the brand. You have copyright, which is more of like the specific creative elements.

rm or whatever. And then the [: 00:37:00

So I mean, they kind of all go hand in hand. Yeah. A lot of times with these bigger brands, you'll see that they are protecting all three because they each serve a different purpose.

Jen Thyrion: Right.

Alyssa Malchiodi : It's almost like. Layering on your IP protection.

Jen Thyrion: Yes. Oh,

Alyssa Malchiodi : that's

Jen Thyrion: so interesting because yeah, because when I think of design pen, I think of, like you said, yeah, like how it's, how it's made essentially.

Right? Like if someone, even for say it was a like a special pair of pants, I don't know. Yeah. But it was like the way that specific pair was made is like a design pen, right? Yeah. Right. It's that, yeah. It's the design of it. Yeah. And the copyright might be like the pattern of it, right. And that would be more of a copyright?

No, like, kind of like,

Alyssa Malchiodi : I mean, it's so like, so specific and

Jen Thyrion: I like, it's [: 00:38:00

Mm-hmm. The manmade opal. So I have opal connectors, I have opal chain. So that got brought up with, I not even like, I think she had posted and I remember like sharing it with you 'cause I already talked to you prior about this. Mm-hmm. And that everyone I feel like, gets scared to even use a clover. Right?

We're like, oh my god. Right. He was a clover. So maybe explaining that and actually too, 'cause I know there was even a lawsuit with Van Cleef from it, was it Louis Vuitton? Right? Was that right?

Alyssa Malchiodi : Yeah. Okay. Yes. Yeah, in France. So, okay. So I know there are a lot of clover jewelry going around. Exactly. And. Yes.

as a trademark, I dunno if I [: 00:39:00

So when you're out there and you see their motif, you automatically think, oh, she's wearing a Van Cleef. So that's the only reason why that trademark is there. Then we get into copyright. The copyright is what's gonna protect direct copying of it. So this is when you see the knockoffs, the counterfeits, where they're producing exact replicas of the motif.

That is what is illegal. 'cause they're, they're copying those specific creative elements. The design patent is what is going to protect the appearance of it, right? So it protects how it looks. So copyright and design patent kind of, you know, go hand in hand, but for the clover, the clover itself is not what is protected.

So basic [: 00:40:00

Right. And so you are not. Prevented from using a clover, you're prevented from using their exact combination of elements to make it look like you're selling a Van Cleef, right? So that's gonna be the difference. When it came to, uh, Louis Vuitton, they had a clover motif in under their blossom collection, and Van Cleef brought a lawsuit.

eve does not own the clover. [: 00:41:00

And so they're like, oh, it's four, or I mean five, you know, they'll use five. Or, you know, however you make that up. I think as long as you make sure that it's not an exact replica of it or you're not presenting it as the Van Cleve, then you're good. I mean, obviously that's a general statement. I usually you'd have to look at piece by piece.

Right? But Van Cleef does not have a monopoly over. The clover shape itself. Right.

Jen Thyrion: Well, now that's why I, I really love that we talked about this because I know a lot of us are, you know, we're just buying product and whatnot, but if you do get to the point where you're designing or you are a jeweler or something like that where you wanna create something, you might get to that point.

e that clover even that look [: 00:42:00

Yeah, right. You just see it everywhere because there's so many knockoffs and whatnot. They're like, oh, it's just a trendy shape, like this beaded bezel. Like, you know, it's just something that's out there. And so then they wanna create something similar because they like it, which is understandable. It's, again, it's not ill intended.

It's more like this is just, you know, it's just a design. It's like, no, it's protected. It's protected. You cannot copy so much things to be aware of, you know? And again, you don't know that, like the fact that someone literally. It was their design. Own it. Yeah. And if you created your own design, obviously wouldn't also be ripped off.

As we know, even with our own permanent jewelry businesses, copying of any sort is really obviously just not the best feeling. And we, we try really hard to create our brand, you know? And even just our look or anything with our business, so we find someone else copying. So it's just some things to be aware of.

te this clover shape. Right, [: 00:43:00

Alyssa Malchiodi : right, right. But they Exactly. It's their own unique take on on it.

Exactly. Yeah. They saw, but you can Exactly. And that, and that goes with anything. Right. So I mean, yes you can. You can take the clover motif, but you're gonna need to make it uniquely yours and make sure that if someone were to look at yours versus a Van Cleef, they're not gonna confuse the two. Yes. Yep.

Because it's all about brand identity and then them owning the design and them owning a copyright to it. And yeah, that's like when you get into Disney stuff, be careful of Disney. Disney will go after small creators, small businesses, they don't care. They protect their stuff hardcore. Yeah. So like definitely.

Steer clear of Disney

Jen Thyrion: unless

Alyssa Malchiodi : you get

an inspirational quote and I [: 00:44:00

Whatever trail property. Yeah, right. Like tagline, whatever you wanna say it. Their quote. And I was like, oh my God. So sorry. I didn't know as if someone actually had me create these, because turns out they sold the jewelry with that quote on it, but it was like five times what I sold it for. Yes, of course.

I was like, Hey, can you just make this for me? I'm like, cool. Like that's fine. It sounds like a cute quote. Cool. And I had no idea. So I took it down. Oh, wow. Another time, this is years ago, I used to sell my handmade jewelry on Etsy and I named a pair of hoops, Harpo, and I got real quick from Oprah. Oh yeah.

because I try to see things [: 00:45:00

And even when if you feel like someone's copying you, they might not know or intend they're copying you. They just might get inspired and they think like they're so new at things that they're just like, oh, I'm gonna do the same thing. 'cause that's just how things are done, right? And it's like, no, you actually are kind of copying, but they don't even realize they're copying.

Does that make

Alyssa Malchiodi : sense? Yes. I mean, and we all kind of know and like there's the inspiration versus the plagiarism copying, which isn't. Cloud horse inspiration, which is allowed. So it's, it's making sure you don't cross those lines. And also trademark enforcers, like you said, Disney, Harpo, the bigger companies, they are going to enforce their trademarks.

And if you had made a lot of money off of that, they would've asked for, for all of your money, right? They would've asked for the profits. And so, you know, they close people down quick. So that's another thing. If you own a trademark, you also need to monitor and enforce it. Otherwise, you are also diluting your trademark, right?

re policing people. You have [: 00:46:00

Jen Thyrion: it yourself. But do you think like Van Cleef is going after all these knockoffs, you get these like cheapy, you know, you see a lot. So it's like, how could they go after every single person that's like knocking off this design?

You know?

Alyssa Malchiodi : I think they'll go after bigger companies once they've built cases up. Yeah. Right. So I think they kind of hurt themselves in France with the Louis Vuitton one. So maybe they're, or they're just. They don't care 'cause it helps their brand. I don't know. I don't know. Yeah, just interesting like yeah, it opens up, like I said, a whole new world.

'cause that for me, each one goes, each one protects their their IP differently. And you never know what's happening behind the scenes. So that's another thing. It's like you don't know if these other. Smaller creators or businesses or bigger businesses are getting a cease and desist. They're not the ones going out there and saying it.

It's only when it eventually gets to a lawsuit that you hear about it. So you know, they might be, they might

ing for a lot of people that [: 00:47:00

I never thought, I never like saw someone and knocked off a certain design, but sometimes I would just see things, see something. Well, funny enough. Okay, this is I, those same hoops that I named Harpo Hoops. They were actually really popular for a minute there on Etsy. And I, a friend actually sent me a link and I renamed them.

I renamed them minutiae hoops because it was actually the, the name of my dentist. This is so weird, weird story. We became friends. So this is back in Vegas days. But anyway, so I name, I rename those. And my friend sent me a link of Etsy where someone literally made the same design of hoop that I made and named them minutiae hoops.

And so I, I, oh gosh. I, I like messaged her on Etsy. I'm like, Hey, this is actually my design. And I named these after a specific person. Yes. And she's like, she was like, oh my God, I'm so sorry. I just thought it was a style. So she. So she like didn't know. And, and so I just, because I thought that was so odd, I'm like, man, these are literally a, i, I wire wrapped them in a specific way.

ght, right, right. They were [: 00:48:00

Alyssa Malchiodi : know. Yeah. But

Jen Thyrion: like, Ugh.

Alyssa Malchiodi : Yeah. Isn't that, but yeah. So like you had to reach out or Thank goodness you stopped it before it got like crazy.

Yeah. I

Jen Thyrion: mean, granted, I, here I am selling little things on Etsy. It wasn't this big deal, but I just felt it was so, it was it. It's the feeling though, and I get it feeling when you see your own design name the same made by someone else that legit copied. It's a really weird, icky feeling. Let's, you know, it's just, it's not, it, it feels

Alyssa Malchiodi : vi, it feels like a violation for sure.

It really does. Oh,

Jen Thyrion: for

Alyssa Malchiodi : sure. Like it does. Yeah.

Jen Thyrion: It's your like intellectual. Property. You know what I mean? It's a lot of

Alyssa Malchiodi : things, right? Yeah. No, it's your creativity. Well, it feel, it's your creativity, right? And so someone is copying your creativity, your expression of your ideas, and so it feels like a violation.

Oh yeah, for sure. All your

Jen Thyrion: hard work, like if someone were to go to your website and just like copy everything word for word, it's like, whoa. Like

e and distance letters about [: 00:49:00

And you're like. But, uh, it's identical, so obviously you did, so

Jen Thyrion: let's get this taken down. It's so, it's so easy to copy now. That's how I feel. Don't you feel that way a little bit with like the, just being online, social media? I don't know. There's so many inundated with things constantly, like it's almost, I think people think that they won't

Alyssa Malchiodi : get

Jen Thyrion: caught.

Alyssa Malchiodi : But they will and they do all the time. Yeah,

Jen Thyrion: because I've heard this from a few digital actually who have digital courses and whatnot, like more. I belong to a mastermind years ago, and she had told us a story about someone who literally copied her course word for word, and I'm like. Crazy, but maybe she just thought she was a little, like a little person in a big world that she, again, no.

They literally think they're don't gonna,

full platforms taken down or [: 00:50:00

'cause they were like, no, I did a copy. I made it myself. You're like, obviously you didn't, if this slide and this slide and this slide and says like you're identical. And so you fight, they fight you. You know? And I've had so much behind the scenes of taking copied work. Off the internet and kind of like, well now you're stuck with your students who paid you.

Now you're gonna start issuing refunds.

Jen Thyrion: Like, good luck. Yeah. You're so right. 'cause you never know. 'cause speaking of those instances I talked about, and it's so funny 'cause I, I kind of actually forgot about those things until we started talking about this, but how even the one company with the quote reached out to me is because one of my followers tipped her off and wrote to the company, was like, she just made the, you know, and so, and again, same with the Etsy list, someone else.

People tattle saw the the hoops and was like, whoa, these are, 'cause I think she was searching for and she wanted to buy 'em from me on Etsy and was like, I came across this other listing. Anyway, that's just, yeah, it's actually not

Alyssa Malchiodi : as big. You will get caught in people tattle, I mean, rightfully so, to call people out.

anna have your business with [: 00:51:00

It gets called out. They're, I'm behind the scenes so often with trying to, you know, not make these these battles go to court. You know, just try and get them like settled beforehand. Yeah. It happens. More than you think. Yeah.

Jen Thyrion: Yeah.

Alyssa Malchiodi : That's a whole, and I'm not the only online lawyer, so I can only

Jen Thyrion: imagine what they're dealing with too.

Oh my gosh. Yeah, it's, this goes into another subject, so we won't go there, but just like to kind of tie it into a nice little bow, but it's like these are also things to be, just, things to be aware of. Again, you don't know what you don't know, but once you know, it's just being aware of that stuff. Like if you're just starting on and you're really clueless, like it's like taking inspiration but knowing that, being aware that you don't wanna copy.

that we sell. We sell these [: 00:52:00

What I want is for you to have the creative freedom. I wanna give this knowledge to someone who wants to make these things because it is such a great addition to your business. If you wanna make it yourself, you should, but that doesn't mean copy my designs and copy, right? That means do it your way. You know what I mean?

Do it your way, because that's what's gonna make you stand out. Anyway. 'cause when you're copying Exactly, you can't, you know, you're gonna be one step behind and if you're copying, that means you don't have enough, like, I don't know, wherewithal to kind of make it your own. It's gonna be, it's gonna be really hard for you to maintain that.

Right. If you keep copying. So anyway, just aware of so, but anything you wanna like wrap it up? Anything last minute thoughts when it comes to legal, I mean, I. I think

Alyssa Malchiodi : that's, I think we covered a lot. It's good. It's just make sure you reach out to a lawyer for legal advice. You know, be careful in these groups.

't have the, uh, skillset to [: 00:53:00

It's not the wild, wild west, but we can figure out how to, you know, really put ourselves, basically, you get to use your discretion as a jeweler to figure out what you feel comfortable with within the boundaries of the

Jen Thyrion: law that we've talked about. Yeah. Last thoughts about that, because I love that you said that when it comes to like.

Groups and stuff, because we can reach out and ask questions in these really helpful groups. Or even just even to our peers too, we'll ask questions or like, you know, but if you're not an expert in that field, right, that you're asking about, everyone has opinions or advice when it comes to anything on in their webs, right?

So if someone did have a question about saying trademarking, whatever. Would you say reaching out to, again, just like kind of Googling like a lawyer or, you know, like be like, be careful Googling,

ful. Here we go. No, no. You [: 00:54:00

Awesome. If you need someone local for like brick and mortar. You can go to the state bar website, they usually have a list. Um, I usually like to go with people that are referred, so I definitely like reach out to your connections. But the biggest thing with finding a lawyer is someone who knows about your business space.

Right? So for me, I'm more of like the online business. Portion. Right? So if you are looking at more of like the local state requirements or brick and mortar, then obviously you want someone local. Okay. But yes, you can absolutely look it up. I was looking, I was saying like, don't Google legal advice. Oh no.

Okay. Because you're gonna get that. You're gonna get that AI generated crap. Exactly. And it is. Pulling from

Jen Thyrion: other people who aren't lawyers. So just be careful. I know, and I, I can't say that enough because I feel like now it is, it's so easy obviously, to Google or to go to those sites and ask a question in a large group or even like ai, right?

I feel like [: 00:55:00

Right. But yeah, thank you for letting us know where to find, 'cause that can be, I'm sure overwhelming too, to like. You know, because like you said, there's lawyers that also specialize in different things.

Alyssa Malchiodi : Yes, they do. So like I do trademarks, I do online business. I really help with like service, uh, providers, online, digital products.

to do it. And then obviously [: 00:56:00

A lawyer, but it most likely would be a business lawyer, contract lawyer, or employment lawyer, depending on what it is you're looking for.

Jen Thyrion: Okay. Perfect. Thank you so much. This is very enlightening. Thank you. I learn something every time. Well, thank you so much for having me. Yes, of course. All right, we'll talk to you soon.

Well, how do you feel? I hope you found value in today's episode and you walk away feeling inspired. I would love to hear from you. Let's link up. You can find me on Instagram at Goldie Link Society. You can find out more about our permanent jewelry membership@goldielinksociety.com, our handmade permanent jewelry, supplies of connectors, chain, and more@goldielinksupplies.com.

Okay, I will see you next time. Have a golden day.